Recently, Tony Jones on his belief net blog stated that
Kashmir
was the greatest rock and roll song ever. Musically, it is a tune I was familiar with in my growing up years. I do not think anything can be inherently wrong with music, but it is the lyrics I am concerned with. I want to ask is what do these lyrics mean and these musicians’ lifestyles that he supports say about him and the emergent church?
Oh let the sun beat down upon my face
Stars to fill my dream
I am a traveler of both time and space
To be where I have been
To sit with elders of the gentle race
This world has seldom seen
They talk of days for which they sit and wait
All will be revealedTalk and song from tongues of lilting grace
Whose sounds caress my ear
But not a word I heard could I relate
The story was quite clearKashmir is a region between India, China, and Pakistan; all three governments have a role in governing the region. Apparently, it is a very beautiful place. Of interest to me, however, for the context of this commentary, is the fact that Kashmir was a center of worship for the Hindu and Buddhist traditions. This song is rich in religious significance, and I think that is significant when we consider Tony Jones’ enjoyment of the song. Tony Jones’
churchwholistic Christian missional community
instead of practicing Christian traditions on Sunday Morning practices the Hindu (Satanic) practice of Yoga. They say it is exercise, but what it is according to Hindu traditions is the worship of their myriad of Gods. Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, and other emergent gurus love the contemplative practices of the Hindus and Doug Pagitt honors their traditions in Solomons Porch by having more quotes from their writings and poetry on their walls than scripture quotes.Back to Page, the one who Tony Jones so admires. It is no secret that Page was involved in many occultic practices during the writing of this song. One of Page’s heroes was Alister Crowley, so much so that he purchased Crowley’s estate Boleskine House in 1971, on the shore of Loch Ness where Crowley practiced his Hellish, Satanic sex-magick rituals, including human sacrifices. Guitarist Jimmy Page would actually performed Crowley magical rituals during their concerts. Crowleys teachings and writings were woven throughout Led Zepplin songs because of Pages’ fixation with him. Kashmir is a fine example of this.
One of the new-age and Satanic practices is called Astral Projection, and this seems to be the reference to being a traveller of time and space. Page believed that he could travel about and speak to ‘elders of the gentle race’. It makes me wonder if he spoke with the same ‘masters’ that Bell spoke of in his message regarding breathing:
“[In Yoga] it’s not how flexible you are, it’s not whether you can do the poses, it’s not how much you can bend yourself, it’s can you keep your breath [breathes in and out] consistent [breathes out] through whatever you are doing.
And the Yoga Masters say this is how it is when you follow Jesus and surrender to God. Is it’s your breath being consistent. It’s your connection with God regardless of the pose you find yourself in. That’s integrating the divine into the daily.”
These ‘elders’ in Pages song sit outside of time and space, and can apparently see the future that will be revealed. It seems as though they are little gods in control and with full knowledge of a future that they have seen. Page’s description of their talk was ‘lilting grace’ that caressed his ear (ear tickling?). Their talk, their songs carry the same tone as yoga-inspired Indian folk music (you see how it all ties together). It truly makes me wonder what God Tony Jones and his emergent cronies are busy worshiping.
Oh, I been flying… mama, there ain’t no denyin’
I’ve been flying, ain’t no denyin’, no denyin’All I see turns to brown, as the sun burns the ground
And my eyes fill with sand, as I scan this wasted land
Trying to find, trying to find where I’ve been.Oh, pilot of the storm who leaves no trace
Like thoughts inside a dream
Heed the path that led me to that place
Yellow desert stream
My Shangri-La beneath the summer moon
I will return again
Sure as the dust that floats high in June
When movin’ through KashmirOh, father of the four winds, fill my sails
Across the sea of years
With no provision but an open face
Along the straits of fearWhen I’m on, when I’m on my way, yeah
When I see, when I see the way, you stay-yeahOoh, yeah-yeah, ooh, yeah-yeah, when I’m down…
Ooh, yeah-yeah, ooh, yeah-yeah, well I’m down, so down
Ooh, my baby, oooh, my baby, let me take you thereLet me take you there. Let me take you there
Who does Tony Jones and Led Zepplin want to fill their sails? The Father of the Four Winds? Who is that?
Daniel 7:1-7 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters. Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
What came up out of the sea as a result of the Father (Satan) of the four winds of Hell?
Revelation 6:1-8 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
What I get from this ‘greatest song EVER’ is that Led Zepplin and their listeners (like Tony Jones) have a different view of reality. They desire to trust Satan, the Father of the four winds, to fill their sails, and take them to a place called Shangri-La. Shangri-La has become synonymous with any earthly paradise but particularly a mythical Himalayan utopia—a permanently happy land, isolated from the outside world. The story of Shangri-La is based on the concept of Shambhala, a mystical city in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. This is a place like the Emergents like Tony Jones envision the kingdom of God they are intending to bring to earth. They are allowing Satan (whether they know it or not) to bring them across their life (sea of years) to an imagined paradise (Kashmir/Shangri-La). I wonder if this is where Tony Jones’ pastor, Doug Pagitt, envisions that God will ‘reconcile and restore all mankind’.
No, in reality, though they believe they are right and are pleasing God, The emergents echo Page and Plant in that they want to ‘take you down’ with them.
I disagree that Kashmir is the greatest song ever. I think that honor would go to Welcome to the Jungle by Guns-n-Roses.
I have to disagree with both Tony and Jerry. Jerry is as lost in the Jungle as Tony is in Kashmir… The best rock song ever has to be Sunshine of Your Love by Cream.
Eugene,
Look, I get what you are saying. Clapton is classic. But have you thought about the implications of what you are saying? I mean, Guns-N-Roses totally saved the world of heavy metal much in the way Nirvana did a few years later. Welcome to the Jungle is a song stuffed thick with theological overtones—strangers in a strange land, temptations, trials, perseverance, trust–it’s all there.
OK. Maybe we can go a little more and say Wasted Years by Iron Maiden. In the video, there is a shot of that giant Jesus statue in Rio–what is it, Cristo Redento?
Top that!
I think you’re all wrong. There goes my life by Kenny Chesney. Or maybe “Some People Change” by the same.
Why are you bringing country music into this? Maybe Ring of Fire (or anything else for that matter) by Johnny Cash or Always on My Mind by Willie Nelson or Coat of Many Colors by Dolly Parton. Even Kenny Rogers’ Gambler. But Kenny Chesney? Excuse me while I vomit.
Sorry Jerry, I didn’t mean to interject songs that actually have words with meaning. Welcome to the jungle? Really. I mean musically, it’s a strong song but the lyrics are goofy.
Everybody knows that Freebird is the greatest rock song ever recorded… I mean what other song has given so many drunken fans the opportunity to yell out something nearly coherent in between songs?
Phil, I’m afraid I’m unaware of that song. Must be a youth pastor thing?
The funniest thing for me was, finding out the source of the really funny “what are they saying??” scene from Ocean’s Twelve.
On a serious note, good observations. Considering that the emergents look for inspiration to New-Agers like Matthew Fox and Ken Wilbur, is it a surprise that their favorite music has New-Age overtones?
Jerry,
It’s not only Clapton that make this song great, there is much more to this classic. That outstanding riff that inspired countless riffing to come (think Iomi and Page), the incorporation of the blues scale sementing it as the sound of rock for the future and the sound of the power trio is what future rock and metal was built on. Cream laid out the path with Sunshine of Your Love and Led Zeppelin/Guns&Roses/Nirvana/… only followed.
Joe, what has Phil Collins have to do with this?
Eugene,
I’m not sure that Phil has anything to do with this. I admit he’s good. Great? Greatest? I doubt it. I wonder if the owner of this blog only listens to “christian” music?
You commenters all miss the point, I think, on purpose.
Just like Joe’s Pastor and his elder team would allow Phyllis Tickle and Peter Rollins vomit forth their false teachings from their pulpit and say nothing about it, you would deny the clear false teachings supported and represented by Tony Jones and his taste in music that carry over into his holistic non christian mission.
And truthfully, Joe, this has nothing to do with music. It has to do with deviant theology.
I have stated before my taste in music is shaped by the question does it glorify God? Is it pure? is it holy? of good report? I do not have the time to really listen to music anymore except in worship and preparing to worship.
You know, I’ve been thinking a lot about this all day. I don’t even think Kashmir is the best Led Zeppelin song ever. My wife and I have danced together on many occasions to ‘Thank You.’ Consider this:
If the sun refused to shine, I would still be loving you.
When mountains crumble to the sea, there will still be you and me.
Kind woman, I give you my all, Kind woman, nothing more.
Little drops of rain whisper of the pain, tears of loves lost in the days gone by.
My love is strong, with you there is no wrong,
together we shall go until we die. My, my, my.
An inspiration is what you are to me, inspiration, look… see.
And so today, my world it smiles, your hand in mine, we walk the miles,
Thanks to you it will be done, for you to me are the only one.
Happiness, no more be sad, happiness….I’m glad.
If the sun refused to shine, I would still be loving you.
When mountains crumble to the sea, there will still be you and me.
TO JOE: What meaning?
Jerry, I’ve got to say I find that statement to be more offensive than John Chisham’s false information above. I worry about your spiritual state with such statements.
I suppose that rules out Mozart and Wagner and Elton John based on lifestyle… buy seriously I find it sad you only listen to music in worship services and/or preparing for the same…I question the appropriateness of calling any music Christian.
I also do not call music Christian.
Music is music. Based upon lyrics, it is good and bad, right and wrong.
That’s a very, very Rick Warren sentiment.
I have no idea what any of you are rambling on about, I only listen to Christian music. I’m serious.
That being said, John, I appreciate your desire to pay attention to lyrics, but I think you’re reading a little too much into it. Would you evaluate a secular poem or painting so in depth?
Also, I’m going to have to go with “Lie Down In the Grass” by Charlie Peacock. What can I say, I like simple lyrics.
I think that we are called to evaluate these things when they are presented as the greatest…….ever by a professed Christian brother. We are called to judge one another. Don’t you think they can give us a little insight into the movement? into their personality?
Gentlemen,
The greatest song ever written is “Dust in the Wind”. Great lyrics, biblical overtones, and excellent production quality.
I might argue it is Carry On Wayward Son….
Carry on my wayward son,
There’ll be peace when you are done
Lay your weary head to rest
Don’t you cry no more
Once I rose above the noise and confusion
Just to get a glimpse beyond this illusion
I was soaring ever higher, but I flew too high
Though my eyes could see I still was a blind man
Though my mind could think I still was a mad man
I hear the voices when I’m dreamin’, I can hear them say:
Carry on my wayward son,
There’ll be peace when you are done
Lay your weary head to rest
Don’t you cry no more
Masquerading as a man with a reason
My charade is the event of the season
And if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don’t know
On a stormy sea of moving emotion
Tossed about I’m like a ship on the ocean
I set a course for winds of fortune, but I hear the voices say:
Carry on my wayward son,
There’ll be peace when you are done
Lay your weary head to rest
Don’t you cry no more NO!
Carry on, you will always remember
Carry on, nothing equals the splendor
Now your life’s no longer empty
Surely heaven waits for you
Carry on my wayward son,
There’ll be peace when you are done
Lay your weary head to rest
Don’t you cry
Don’t you cry no more
John Elfante did a great job on keyboards and singing this one. I think because he was singing about himself in a way.
Chris,
Except for its aberrant theology (nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky) I could agree. And, at least one of the band mates became a born-again Christian (Kerry Livgren). At least his search ended in truth.
Don’t forget about John Elfante who was the second singer.
Im a Smashing Pumpkins guy myself, but then again, I’m younger than you.
So you like this lyric, Preson….
the world is a vampire, sent to drain
secret destroyers, hold you up to the flames
and what do i get, for my pain
betrayed desires, and a piece of the game
even though i know-i suppose i’ll show
all my cool and cold-like old job
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
then someone will say what is lost can never be saved
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
now i’m naked, nothing but an animal
but can you fake it, for just one more show
and what do you want, i want to change
and what have you got
when you feel the same
even though i know-i suppose i’ll show
all my cool and cold-like old job
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
then someone will say what is lost can never be saved
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
tell me i’m the only one
tell me there’s no other one
jesus was an only son
tell me i’m the chosen one
jesus was an only son…for you
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
then someone will say what is lost can never be saved
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
tell me i’m the only one
tell me there’s no other one
jesus was an only son…for you
and i still believe that i cannot be saved
and i still believe that i cannot be saved
and i still believe that i cannot be saved
and i still believe that i cannot be saved
Those lyrics by Smashing Pumpkins are some of the best lyrics ever written. I think they perfectly describe the angst most are feeling. They can be a great leap-off point for conversation.
He doesn’t think Jesus can save; Jesus thinks otherwise.
That may express angst into which we can proclaim hope.
When I did listen to/sing along with this song, I would substitute “and I still believe that a man can be saved”
Unfortunately, a lot of modern evangelical emergent types echo- “Jesus is the only one…for you (saying for others it can and may be different)
I actually like the Smashing Pumpkins a lot. Billy Corgan (the Pumkins’ frontman) is a interesting character, and I think he may be a believer. He front a band for a while called Zwan around 2003-4, and many of their lyrics were much more positive. He also helped produce an album for a Christian band called Sleeping at Last.
Catholic, Yes.
Christian? no…
He is devoted to Mary, hence the name of Zwan’s only album. He claims to get inspiration from Mary and the name of the album is the name of the Catholic Church in Key West where Corgan went when putting together the album.
Well I guess I’m not too quick to jump on your assumption that “Catholic” automatically equals “not Christian”.
By the way, PB, it’s good to see you know your way around Wikipedia…
Ok, Carry on Wayward son probably needs some consideration. Excellent pick up there.
Catholics are, if they submit to the theology of catholicism, the worship of the saints, the adoration of Mary, the reliance on works for justification…etc…etc…etc…
They are not Christian…according to the Bible.
Ah, Bullet with Butterfly wings is indeed an amazing piece of composing! It also lets you into the mind of someone who is struggling to come to grips with God.
There is a proggression with Billy Corgan (the lead singer and the guy who basically plays everything on the albums).
In “Gish” (89) they are just an agnostic teenage angst band full of anger.
On “Siamese Dream” (93) they start singing about God in an illusive way, as if realizing that there is something bigger.
On “Melancholie & the Infinite Sadness” (95) (the album with the song you mentioned), Billy comes to a realization of God and is angry at the hurt that he has seen, so comes to the conclusion that God must not be good.
On “Pisces Iscariot” (97) it is a little more accepting of mans role in his sinful state.
On “Adore” (99) He starts exploring love and realizing that love MUST be a sign that we were created to love and BE loved in a great way.
On “Machina… the Machines of God” (2000) he takes a turn towards happiness as he starts writing about the Joy that God brings and the Love he has for the world. (consequently, the band breaks up after this album, and Billy starts a Happier band called ZWAN)
After this album he also went on a poetry tour with many other modern poets, but instead of reading poetry, would use his time to read from the book of Psalms.
That is the history of the Pumpkins in a nutshell, thanks folks… I’m here all week!